Digital Juice Forums
Advice needed: Export for QT prog. download |
Logged in as: Guest |
|
 Printable Version
|
 All Forums >> [Tips, Tricks, & Tutorials] >> Using Digital Juice Products with Adobe Premiere >> Advice needed: Export for QT prog. download | Page: [1] |
|
|||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
Dear Community: I wanted to see how to output QT files in PP CS3 so that they play in progressive download. I rendered a 6 minute video in h264 720 X 480 and the resulting video was 30MB and requires about 20 seconds to download and play. Do you have to have a streaming/progressive server in order to do this? Can it be fed from a standard web host in progressive or streaming modes? Thanks a bunch. Jeff Deuitch Impact Video Graphx Palmetto, Fl |
|||
|
||||
Advice needed: Export for QT prog. download - 
|
||||
D. Eric Franks Posts: 2544 Joined: 11/10/2004 From: Florida Status: offline
|
It should "stream" off of any server, in the informal sense that it'll start playing before the entire video has finished downloading. A real streaming server would be required for fancier/more reliable options, but, in my opinion, is unnecessary for most people. One thing to check: JP and I discovered that Vegas' implementation of Main Concept's AVC (H.264) encoder is messed up and does not enable "quick start", which breaks this type of psuedo-streaming. Grrrr. Is it broken in Premiere (which uses Main Concept as well)? I have no reason to think that it is, but haven't tested it. (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
Hello Mr. Franks: I am a big fan of Tech Know. Nice work and good to hear from you. Other Quicklime videos I have seen over the web appear to be progressive, if I am correct, this is indicated by how the status bar reveals the downloaded progress and separate player progress as the video plays. The following file takes an extended period to download then plays in its entirety with no download progress bar visible. Its extended download period would lead me to believe that it is a full download and not progressive. Here is the link for a video we did on a luxury real estate property. www.vid-tours.com/ElconH264.mov I did not see any special settings in PP CS3 to set the file specifically for progressive delivery off of a web host. This is why I wanted to know if you need a streaming server to deliver progressive. I have a Windows Media streaming account where you can select for streaming or progressive. Didn't know if QT had the same requirements. Thanks. Jeff Deuitch Impact Video Graphx Palmetto, FL (in reply to D. Eric Franks) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
dglennl Posts: 104 Joined: 8/21/2007 Status: offline
|
I'm not an expert on video for the web, so take this information for whatever it's worth. But since Eric (who is an expert!) is a Vegas man, I figured I'd jump in with some information from my limited experience. Have you played around with the QT export settings in CS3 Media Encoder? Specifically, check out the download vs. streaming presets. I just converted a 5 minute video to each preset and uploaded them to Vimeo. It didn't seem to matter which preset I used, but that may be attributed to what Vimeo does when they convert the videos. Here are some links: CS3 Streaming preset: www.vimeo.com/5654908 CS3 Download preset: www.vimeo.com/5654885 Camtasia version: www.vimeo.com/5655120 And it's that last example that is the primary reason I'm jumping into this discussion. Eric and I have exchanged private e-mail about why Camtasia is so much better at compressing video, even with the exact same settings, output formats and codecs as used in CS3. I was playing around with web video at my old job shortly before I left and I was consistently finding that I was getting much better output (MP4, QT, WMV) by outputting my video from CS3 to an avi, importing that into Camtasia Studio 6 and outputting from there. You don't have to watch the entire videos above to see the quality difference -- just watch the first 30 seconds or so until you see the video title, "College Savings for all Seasons." The Camtasia version is far superior to either of the CS3 versions (which are about the same), even though I used the exact same output settings. When I looked at your video, I wondered if you would find the same thing. Anyone who has fish ponds inside their house (!!!) is probably willing to pay for the best quality video. Ha, ha. If you don't already have Camtasia, download the trial version and give it a shot (www.techsmith.com). It's easy to use and great for lots of other projects, so it's a good investment. I don't know if it will resolve your streaming/download question, but you might just as well look at quality while you're playing around with all of this. I hope this info helps...but, again, trust what the experts say since I mostly produce video for DVD and my web experience is fairly limited. Deb < Message edited by dglennl -- 7/18/2009 3:08:06 PM > (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
I know of Camtaisa, but I thought it was a screen recording utility. I guess I did not look far enough in to it or maybe I am thinking about a different program. None the less, if it helps to generate a better product, then I am all for it. The property video was an experiment for which I did not charge. I wanted to get some experience with videoing a luxury property, and we filmed interior scenes near sunset with very bright light entering the house, but many different brightness levels as well as having artificial light along with sunlight. White balanced continuously, but still had some problems. Color correction was only partially able to help.Additionally, having windows in the scene really made for a wide variety of different exposures. Next time, I will use a polarizing filter and I would not necessarily shoot around sunset. The outdoor scenes were filmed during a different shoot at about high noon. Thanks for the many suggestions. the progressive issue has me frustrated and an outboard encoder may be the answer. Regards. Jeff (in reply to dglennl) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
Thanks. Can you tell me whata the "Source to Streaming" and "Source to Download" features mean? Perhaps this is the problem. Since I typically associate "Streaming" with true streaming and not Progressive download, then this does not seem quite right. I am not sure what "Source to Download". Another respondant mentioned "Fast Start". I do not see any setting labeld this way in PP CS3. This term seems logical, but I do not see it in the Adobe Media Encoder for QT exports. Help is greatly appreciated. Jeff (in reply to dglennl) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
Not sure why you are referening an HTML Embed tag. The QT file was upoaded to a folder on my web host. It is not embedded in a web page, therefore there is no way to specify. I certainly could embed it into a web page if tha is required in order to allow progressive download, but I was not aware that this is necessary. Regards. Jeff |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
dglennl Posts: 104 Joined: 8/21/2007 Status: offline
|
You are right, Camtasia is a screen recording program (and a very good one at that!) and that's mostly what I use it for. I stumbled upon the better output from Camtasia, as compared to Premiere Pro, when I was struggling with a video that had a short screen recording in it. That section of the video looked absolutely awful on DVD, so I thought that creating an AVI from CS3 and importing that into Camtasia was worth a shot. That didn't solve my original problem, but it sure did alert me to a solution for a quality issue that I had been having with exporting from PP. The quality difference still baffles me, but Eric explained some of his experiences and at least I knew that I was in good company. As for why the screen recordings in the video looked so awful on DVD, that had to do with pixel aspect ratio (recording square pixels with Camtasia and outputting rectangular ones on DVD). It's a long story, with a moderately happy outcome, but I don't want to be accused of hijacking this thread, so we'll just leave it at that. The bottom line is that I am still experimenting, but so far I have found the best output for my videos is Encore for DVDs and Camtasia for everything else. I hate the extra step of using Camtasia simply as a compressor/output mechanism, but the increased quality seems to be worth it and the file sizes are about the same as from PP. Maybe you'll get lucky and find that the "quick start" issue is resolved in the process of improving your quality...similar to the situation that Eric described with Vegas. Good luck! (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
dglennl Posts: 104 Joined: 8/21/2007 Status: offline
|
Oops...just saw your subsequent question (I got distracted while writing my post about Camtasia, so I think our messages "crossed"). Anyway, maybe these links will help: http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/PremierePro/3.0/help.html?content=WSbaf9cd7d26a2eabf53ab041041081290f-7feb.html (sets the stage for Media Encoder presets) http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/PremierePro/3.0/help.html?content=WSbaf9cd7d26a2eabf53ab041041081290f-7feb.html (progressive download vs. streaming) http://livedocs.adobe.com/en_US/PremierePro/3.0/help.html?content=WSbaf9cd7d26a2eabf53ab041041081290f-7feb.html (QT options) Again, I work mostly with DVD-based videos and I am sure that there are others who are much better versed in the intricacies of outputting for the web. Good luck! (in reply to dglennl) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
I am not totally sure I understand. I thought you outputted to QT for progressive download or streaming. However, the video looks to have been posted to a video sharing service which transcodes to Flash, which, if like YouTube, is going to re compress. I am not sure why you would encode to a compressed format only to send to a hosting site which is going to compress again to Flash. I would think the only format you would want to submit to a video hosting site would be as a native AVI or possibly as QT animation (uncompressed). Actually I may be jumping the gun. Does the Vimeo site compress upon conversion? I would think compressing and then re compressing at the host level would create significant damage to the signal. I use a Window Media Streaming service called Mydeo. They do not compress or transcode. They merely take a WMV file and send back out via Streaming or Progressive Download (user's choice). The only compression applied, is that which you do in your editor. My original issue is does not involve the use of public video sharing sites. I wish to serve the QT video as a media file right off of my web hosting account as a progressive download. If this is effective, I will get rid of the WMV streaming service. Thanks for the help and best wishes. Jeff (in reply to dglennl) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
quote: There is no control that I can see referred to as "Quick Start" Thanks. Jeff Deuitch Palmetto, FL (in reply to D. Eric Franks) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
D. Eric Franks Posts: 2544 Joined: 11/10/2004 From: Florida Status: offline
|
Wow, great discussion. Lots of info. Executive Summary: MainConcept AVC doesn't use/have/reveal a QuickStart option. QuickTime has a Streaming > Fast start option, but I suspect it's just for fancy/expensive QT streaming servers. None of this matters, of course, if you are uploading to a host that is going to re-compress (YouTube, Vimeo). If you are hosting your own video, many, many (most? all?!) codecs should playback before finishing downloading the video (like MPEG-1 has for over a decade now) by default and without any special considerations, however, there may be broken exceptions (Vegas+MainConcept+Amazon). It's easy enough to test, but slow/cheap webhosts will be entirely inadequate. Long Sunday Morning Coffee, Bagel + Cream Cheese Version: You got right to the heart of the problem, Jeff: Main Concept's AVC codec installs with Premiere, Vegas, Camtasia and a bunch of other apps as well. The codec itself is deep and robust, but each company (Adobe, Sony, TechSmith) implements it in its own way/interface, exposing or hiding options based on logical deliberation, whim and licensing agreements. Whether it even makes sense to have a "Quick Start" option in Main Concept AVC or not, I don't know, but I've never seen the option exposed. In any case, Vegas+MC-AVC+Amazon's platform as a host results in videos that do not start until the entire video downloads. Fortunately, my videos are always concise, so it wasn't a complete disaster while JP and I figured out a solution. QuickTime has a Streaming tab and a Fast start option. I guess it can't hurt to select this, but I suspect the flags it toggles only speak to a QuickTime streaming server and, even then, it'll probably work with some codecs and not others. Again, Sony implements QuickTime differently from Adobe and, unfortunately, there are so many codecs and wrappers that there are often options exposed that don't do anything (for example, the NTSC DV codec with the option to change frame size, rate and color depth - just 3 examples of parameters that are inflexibly limited in DV). And, no, none of these options make any difference at all when uploading to a host that is going to recompress your video, of course. Besides, YouTube, Vimeo, et al. already have all the fancy server stuff operating at peak efficiency (we hope!). Yes, uploading as high of quality as you can while staying under their file-size ceiling is exactly what you want to do, no, it doesn't have anything to do with MOV or AVI file format wrappers. Assuming your videos are longer than a minute, you'll want to use an H.264 codec (MainConcept, QuickTime, WMV, DivX) and bump the data rate right up to whatever limit the service specs. So we are really only talking about serving a file off your own Website. Easy enough to test. Like I said, I think most formats/codecs will start playing before finishing downloading (MPEG-1 has done this for at least a dozen years), but it obviously depends (like the broken Vegas+MainConcept+Amazon situation I discovered). If you are using one of the ultra cheap shared-hosting services (e.g., GoDaddy, HostMonster, Powweb), there is almost no hope of getting fast enough speeds to serve quality video consistently. (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
quote: Yes, thanks. I am on Godaddy, and that may be the real problem. I looked around the QT encoding options on PP CS3 for all codecs and there was no language on any of the options with wording like "Quick Start" "Fast Start" or anything like that. The only option even remotely similar was for "Autoplay", but I assume this only pertains to whether the video starts playing by itself or if the user has to click the play button. I may look into CS4 to see if this has been addressed. One note of correction. For the subject of this thread, I was not referring to delivery from a web site. I was referring to storing the file on space on my web host, then just providing a lnk directly to the stored media file. In essence I am just using hard drive space on the web host's server to store a raw media file and providing a link to that file so viewers can access. Big difference! The link I provided for the real estate video was just that. No web page, just a media file by itself. One viewer commented about adjusting the HTML tags. This would not apply. Do videos have to be embedded into a web page or in HTML tags for Progressive Download to work? You have my curiosity. Who is JP? Also, are there going to be any more Tech Know episodes? Perhaps the Progressive Download issue might be a topic for an episode with details about how it is handled in various on-board and stand alone encoding programs? This would be very valuable for us web video wannabes. Regards. Jeff Deuitch Palmetto, FL < Message edited by manappraisal -- 7/19/2009 12:32:20 PM > (in reply to D. Eric Franks) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
D. Eric Franks Posts: 2544 Joined: 11/10/2004 From: Florida Status: offline
|
Nope, you're mixed up now. There are two ways to deliver your video (1) host it from your Webserver/Webpage (same, same) or (2) host it from a server different from that of your Websever/Webpage (like YouTube/Vimeo/Amazon). Whether you just provide direct link to the file (like you did above - opens a new window or download dialog) or "embed" it in a Webpage (which basically means you embed a player), it doesn't make much difference, although the code for the player is likely to have some options you can play with (autoplay, looping, controls, size, stuff like that). As I said, "progressive" download (playing back before the entire file is there) is and has been possible using any number of codecs for a very long time now (in Internet years, anyhow) and is pretty much the default behavior. CS, CS3, CS4... not going to make a difference, especially since we're really talking about MainConcept or QuickTime or WMV or whatever and not something that has anything to do with Adobe (unless you are talking Flash, of course). GoDaddy is going to be very bad at hosting/serving video for $5/mo (or whatever), although they might have a premium package you can buy. Personally, I haven't found a good reason not to use Vimeo as my host and there are about a bajillion other options, too. JP is DJ's Web guy, among many, many other things that he does, including an unhealthy obsession with video codecs. I haven't been with the company in about 18 months, but, yea, this is a great topic for show, maybe on videopia some day! (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
quote: No, not mixed up. I do understand that whether embedded in an HTML page or called up directly as a media file it is still served from the web host. I just wasn't sure if HTML code in a web page (if the media file is embedded) affected the playback characteristics. Since the Real Estate Video I posted does seem to play only as a full download and not in progressive, this is what is confusing to me. I will indeed contact Godaddy and see if they can provide info about what spped they can serve data. If their server has a speed over the bitrate of the compressed video file, would it not serve correctly? I am a bit undereducated in this. Thanks for helping me along. I encoded the same video as a SWF with embedded player. I previously encoded as a SWF without the player. In each case the same thing happened as with the .MOV version. About 20-30 seconds is required for the video to play. The SWF encoder (Wildform Flair Flash authoring software) can be set to include an adaptive preloader and this would be the next step for testing. The SWF version can be accessed at: http://vid-tours.com/Hicham.swf BTW. If you are not with DJ anymore, what are you doing these days? Still cruising the DJ forums so I assume all is good with your relations with the DJ folks. Really miss Tech Know. I learned a great deal from that series. Regards. Jeff (in reply to D. Eric Franks) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
mediatvguy Posts: 4380 Joined: 4/20/2006 From: Florida Status: offline
|
This is being hosted at Godaddy... $6.99 a month: < Message edited by mediatvguy -- 7/19/2009 10:46:14 PM > (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
quote: Looks terrific and QT Video plays great on my computer. Perhaps Godaddy is not the issue here. I am not really the expert but desparately trying to find the answers. Nice Work. Jeff (in reply to mediatvguy) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
D. Eric Franks Posts: 2544 Joined: 11/10/2004 From: Florida Status: offline
|
"Hicham.swf" plays instantly for me (as opposed to the original "ElconH264.mov", which takes 20-30 seconds). File sizes are pretty close (26MB vs. 30MB, respectively), so your tests prove that you can get instant play on GoDaddy at these data rates (at least on Monday morning from my house!). If you just dump the FLV file and link to it (instead of the whole SWF package), does it play instantly? And of course I get along great with DJ and love the community here (although I still make Dave cranky every now and again!). I'm doing the videopia.org thing, freelance training, freelance writing, speaking on the circuit occasionally... always looking for more work! < Message edited by D. Eric Franks -- 7/20/2009 9:52:57 AM > (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
quote: I haven't tried an FLV. Actually encoded straight from AVI to SWF. I will encode separately to FLV. However, since not everyone is capable of reading FLV's directly, I went straight to SWF. Strangely, the SWF file seems to play at a screen size much larger than the native res of 720 X 480 (1.2). When it finally played on my computer, it did so at nearly full screen. Another mystery. Checked out videopia (spp?). Nice work on the demo reel and especially the story about software for shaky video. I am promoting real estate video both as an original producer, and as a "fixer" for shaky video taken by agents. I am not really happy with packages presently available (I have tried Red Giant, Prodad Mercalli, and AE). The zooming needed to hide the moving frame edges used to compensate, results in an uncomfortable perspective. RE agents have mainly resigned to using "Virtual Tours" with still photos because of shaky video as well as complications due to the need for editing, narration etc. Good luck with the training and other video related pursuits. You are certainly to go to guy for the tech! Regards. Jeff < Message edited by manappraisal -- 7/20/2009 10:15:45 AM > (in reply to D. Eric Franks) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
JP Shook Posts: 1070 Joined: 5/1/2003 From: Ocala, FL Status: offline
|
The hosting should not have anything to do with fast start progressive. Fast start requires that there be a special metadata flag at the beginning of the file instead of the end of the file. Real streaming requires a special server setup and special encoding methods. For most users, progressive download is more than adequate. If yo4 does a great job andu are not able to get fast start from Premiere, then you might try Handbrake (handbrake.fr - free) or a professional encoding package like Sorenson Squeeze or Episode Pro. QuickTime pro can also do ok web video, but it only supports the baseline h.264 profile which is the least efficient and there are many advanced settings that you do not have access to. I find that the Adobe Media Encoder CS supports lots of advanced settings. You will notice that most applications use the MP4 wrapper now as opposed to the MOV wrapper for H.264 encoding. Personally, I prefer using MP4. Here are some pro tips for encoding H.264 for web delivery. (if your video must be iPod/iPhone compatible, then I recommend using a software with iPod presets since those devices only support the lowest profiles of H.264 and video encoded with the settnigs below are not ipod/iPhone compatible) 2 pass Variable bit rate (VBR) - This makes a big difference Profile: High 4.0 or above CABAC (entropy encoding): ON Reference Frames: 2 - 4 B-Frames: 2 - 4 Key Frame Every: I usually set this to 60 for medium to fast motion) Streaming/Hinted - DO NOT enable this as this is only for streaming servers Minimum Quality sliders - normally, you should not use these. NLE Encoders - most NLEs are not suitable for web video encoding. Use a free or pro dedicated encoder! I hope this helps! _____________________________ JP Shook Director of Internet Development Digital Juice, Inc. (in reply to manappraisal) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
manappraisal Posts: 102 Joined: 1/29/2008 Status: offline
|
quote: Thanks for the advice. I have no particular love for QT or dedication for it's use. I want what works best. I have seen a lot of good video using it so I thought I would investigate. No "Fast Start" options anywhere in Premiere CS3 which utilizes Adobe Media Encoder. Of course this could be different in CS4. IN fact I started the thread requesting comments regarding CS3 vs CS4 for this very reason. I know CS4 offers batch encoding which would be nice if I was encoding for mobile devices, a very real prospect for the future, but what at what resolution? So many devices and resolutions! I will check out the freeware app you referenced. I am resistant to stand alone encoders such as Squeeze due to cost considerations and leapfrogging by other brands. Today's best is tomorrow's Also-Ran! It is truly a privilege to have such experts on this board such as you and Mr. Franks. A great body of knowledge and help in getting to solutions. Thanks so much it is appreciated. Of course Kudos to DJ for the very fine products and training as well. Jeff Deuitch Palmetto, FL (in reply to JP Shook) |
|||
|
||||
| Page: [1] |
|---|
| All Forums >> [Tips, Tricks, & Tutorials] >> Using Digital Juice Products with Adobe Premiere >> Advice needed: Export for QT prog. download | Page: [1] |
|
|
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread