Digital Juice Forums
DV Green Screens |
Logged in as: Guest |
|
 Printable Version
|
 All Forums >> [Tips, Tricks, & Tutorials] >> General Tips, Tricks, and Techniques >> DV Green Screens | Page: [1] |
|
|||
|
||||
Kindredmachine Posts: 98 Joined: 1/26/2006 From: California Status: offline
|
Hello again. I'm back with another exciting episode of "Kindredmahcine the DV noOb!". This time around, I've been playing with green screens and I'm having trouble making it look good. So far, this is the best I've done...  I'm using the "green screen key" and also trying the "RGB Difference Screen" which both work ok but as you can see, they both leave a LOT of green grains around the person. Does anyone have any tips for me regarding using DV and green screening? Is the screen too close to the subject? If I move it farther away, maybee the Canon XL1 cameras won't be able to focus on it as much and it will create a smoother green background? Or maybee I need to use a different thing in Premier? I have no clue what I am doing :-( Finally... I'm trying to do all of this in Premier but is there some reason it would work better in After Effects? I usually only use AE for when I'm using plugins like "shine". FYI: I'm also using 3 500-watt photoflood lights on the screen.... and I'm using that "green screen cloth/foam" stuff hanging from a backdrop. Do the green paper rolls work better/as well? < Message edited by Kindredmachine -- 3/17/2006 7:10:21 PM > _____________________________ Brent Ingenuity Films www.TheFinalProphecies.com |
|||
|
||||
DV Green Screens - 
|
||||
Matt Posts: 5743 Joined: 5/15/2003 From: Oak Ridge, NC Status: offline
|
Kindermachine, here's a link to an article from Juice Mag that might help. http://www.digitaljuice.com/magazine/articles/2005_11_green.asp _____________________________ mattjanowsky.com (in reply to Kindredmachine) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Kindredmachine Posts: 98 Joined: 1/26/2006 From: California Status: offline
|
Thank you very much. This will make the lighting a lot easier. Do people use specifically a "chromo key" option though when masking out the green and is there a difference between it in Adobe Premier VS After Effects? _____________________________ Brent Ingenuity Films www.TheFinalProphecies.com (in reply to Matt) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Matt Posts: 5743 Joined: 5/15/2003 From: Oak Ridge, NC Status: offline
|
I've always heard after effects was better. I've never tried it in premiere. Some others might be able to give you better tips, I do very little green screening.
_____________________________ mattjanowsky.com (in reply to Kindredmachine) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
Kevin Brunner Posts: 1056 Joined: 4/22/2003 Status: offline
|
There are somethings that are very hard to deal with... in this shoot it is the hair. The compression in DV will cause issues with that type of hair no matter what software, lights, screen... you might have. $15 on some good jell or cream will do more than anything else  Starting with a good green-screanable environment and subject/talent material will save many headaches. _____________________________ Kevin Brunner - Former VP Tech - Digital Juice (in reply to Matt) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
n513kk0 Posts: 167 Joined: 4/26/2005 Status: offline
|
go download an eval of serious magic's ultra. try that on the footage you already shot. i bet you will be surprised. _____________________________ kkinser@mindspring.com kimtv.neptune.com (in reply to Kevin Brunner) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Kindredmachine Posts: 98 Joined: 1/26/2006 From: California Status: offline
|
Thank you for the tips :-)
_____________________________ Brent Ingenuity Films www.TheFinalProphecies.com (in reply to Kevin Brunner) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Kindredmachine Posts: 98 Joined: 1/26/2006 From: California Status: offline
|
OMG! That Ultra 2 program is unbelievable. Not a spec of green and it's shockingly crisp. I'm speechless.
_____________________________ Brent Ingenuity Films www.TheFinalProphecies.com (in reply to n513kk0) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
Graham Posts: 2287 Joined: 9/10/2003 From: Sunny Warm Florida Status: offline
|
Can you post a screen shot? I was gonna post a technique on changing the pulldown and then redoing it but if UM did it for you then great.
_____________________________ Graham (in reply to Kindredmachine) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
Chuck Peters Posts: 236 Joined: 9/13/2004 From: Juice Status: offline
|
To start with, DV is notoriusly difficult to key because of the compression involved. 4:1:1 just doesn't key well. Even so, there is a bit you can do to improve your keys... and while a lot of people will point you to software solutions, you'll only find them moderately helpful until you are starting with the best possible footage in the camera. The key to good keys is lighting... and no piece of software can make up for bad lighting. -- In fact, I bet that with a few lighting adjustments, you can fix most of this without spending a dime. Here are a few tips: 1) Adjust Subject-to-Background Distance - To get a clean key it's important to light the wall completely separately from your subject. Looking at your frame grabs, I am guessing your subject is too close to the wall. By pulling the subject farther away from the background you will reduce the reflection of green light that is spilling off the wall onto his hair and shoulders. If you move him another 10-12 feet away from the wall, I bet you'll see a big improvement. If you are worried that your wall is too small, move your camera back and zoom in to a telephoto lens setting to compress the background. 2) Add a Hair Light. - It looks to me like you have him lit with Key & Fill lights from both sides, but I don't see any evidence of a hair/backlight. In fact, he looks to be lit rather dimly. I'd cheat those lights in a little closer & you'll get better skin tones, etc. Anyhow.. back to that backlight: A bright light positioned over his head that falls on his head & shoulders will help to "cut him out," separate him from the wall & pop him off the background. It will also overpower any of the green spill reflecting from your wall. -- A focused lamp will work fine for people with hair, though a little diffusion will help -- but those of us with shiny hairless heads need to be lit from above with large, soft lights to avoid specular highlights that cause glowing hot spots. 3) Light Your Wall Flat - The flatter & more even you can light your wall the better. You should see very little gradiation of your green bkg from top to bottom and side to side. Over years of trial & error, I have become a fan of lighting green screens from the sides & top with long tubular flourescent lamps. The long tubes distribute light much more evenly than the focused lamps in a typical video light kit. Overall, your wall looks pretty good. If all else fails, get a$15 razor & shave the guy's head. It works great for me. =) ~cp < Message edited by Chuck Peters -- 3/22/2006 8:22:17 AM > (in reply to Graham) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Graham Posts: 2287 Joined: 9/10/2003 From: Sunny Warm Florida Status: offline
|
Now that is what i call a post. Points for you Mr.Peters.
_____________________________ Graham (in reply to Chuck Peters) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
Zacbray Posts: 1980 Joined: 7/9/2004 From: Bartlett, TN (Just outside Memphis) Status: offline
|
I do a lot of Chroma Keying and even though I think I do a pretty decent job it is nice to hear how others do it and the tools that they use to accomplish a good look. Thanks Chuck - points for you. _____________________________ Fred Matthews Spot Prod. Love Worth Finding Ministry Avid Media Composer 2.7 hp workstation xw-8400 3 GB RAM AE 6.5 PS CS (in reply to Graham) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
Heavyd Posts: 356 Joined: 1/27/2006 From: Cambridge Ontario Canada Status: offline
|
I key quite a bit and I am always looking to refine my craft. I like the key stuff in PPro but not as much as DFX+. I am looking into Ultra though. Lighting is everything with Greenscreen. I am trying to construct a screen like the one in the Kingdom of Juice I just need to talk the wife into knocking out a wall or two and maybe a ceiling. Can you post a screen shot of the Ultra clip so we can see it? _____________________________ David Hopkinson Creative Director/ Giantkiller Creative. I'm addicted to the Juice (no 12 step program needed, your mileage may vary) PPro2.0, PC, ETK All, JB ALL,HDJB ALL,VTX ALL,STX ALL, BT ALL,PTK,SFX and a few JD's. (in reply to Zacbray) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Zacbray Posts: 1980 Joined: 7/9/2004 From: Bartlett, TN (Just outside Memphis) Status: offline
|
Speaking of Green Screens, could someone at DJ supply the dimensions for the green wall that you use there? Or can I get a copy of the plans you used to build it? We are looking at building a green wall and I really like the look of the one that you have in the Sept. 05 magazine (pg 14). If you are able to do this I would also like to know your lighting set-up for the wall itself and what brand of paint you used. Instead, can the DJ construction team come up here and build me one? But really, if I can get that info I would really appreciate it. Thanks. _____________________________ Fred Matthews Spot Prod. Love Worth Finding Ministry Avid Media Composer 2.7 hp workstation xw-8400 3 GB RAM AE 6.5 PS CS (in reply to Heavyd) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
MikeM Posts: 2347 Joined: 2/25/2005 From: Germany Status: offline
|
Chroma keying is a topic I'm very interested in, too. Although I did some (very rudimentary) tests from time to time I did not yet do any keying for a real project. I read many articles and posts on related forums regarding this topic. One often discussed question is whether blue or green is better suited for typical chroma keying (leaving out special VFX variants with black or red). The opinions differ. Blue has the advantage of being the opposite color of skin tone, whereas green has a higher luminance value. Well, what does the DJ community think about this? What are your opinions and experiences? < Message edited by MikeM -- 3/23/2006 10:12:17 AM > _____________________________ Michael Lt. Cmdr. Data: If the warp drive fails to activate, the results could be... unfortunate. Lieutenant Worf: Very unfortunate. We will be dead. i7 / Win7 64 Bit SP1; Avid MC 6.5; Adobe CS6 PP; Nuendo 2-6; Wavelab 7; C4D R12 (in reply to Zacbray) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Zacbray Posts: 1980 Joined: 7/9/2004 From: Bartlett, TN (Just outside Memphis) Status: offline
|
Blue seemed to be the biggie back in the day but I believe green has pushed well in front as the favorite. Every TV station that I have every worked for uses green and our church studio uses green. I tend to like it because there isn't much that I am going to shoot that is going to be "that" color.
_____________________________ Fred Matthews Spot Prod. Love Worth Finding Ministry Avid Media Composer 2.7 hp workstation xw-8400 3 GB RAM AE 6.5 PS CS (in reply to MikeM) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Matt Posts: 5743 Joined: 5/15/2003 From: Oak Ridge, NC Status: offline
|
I've heard different things. Green for DV, blue for film. Blue is better for skin tones because blue is the one color that is not in skin tones. Green is the best because it is sampled more, etc.. etc.. etc.. But the one thing that I hear constantlly and from almost everyone is that it doesn't really matter what color, the most important thing is lighting.
_____________________________ mattjanowsky.com (in reply to Zacbray) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
MikeM Posts: 2347 Joined: 2/25/2005 From: Germany Status: offline
|
Another aspect is that a little blue spill is usually less noticeable than a little green spill.
_____________________________ Michael Lt. Cmdr. Data: If the warp drive fails to activate, the results could be... unfortunate. Lieutenant Worf: Very unfortunate. We will be dead. i7 / Win7 64 Bit SP1; Avid MC 6.5; Adobe CS6 PP; Nuendo 2-6; Wavelab 7; C4D R12 (in reply to Matt) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
n513kk0 Posts: 167 Joined: 4/26/2005 Status: offline
|
for DV best choice is an ugly shaded of green background. Lighting is also important. Chuck has it all right in his post further up in this thread. Seperation of talent from the backdrop and even light on the backdrop are prob. the most critical. But really any of you that are futzing around in your NLE to do chomakey should go right now and try the free eval of serious magic's ultra. I having been using ultra since shortly after it was released and it really is a great thing. I rarely take my camera off the tripod in my basement anymore. Go take some photo's of the location and then shoot in your studio. What could be more controlled? _____________________________ kkinser@mindspring.com kimtv.neptune.com (in reply to MikeM) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Chuck Peters Posts: 236 Joined: 9/13/2004 From: Juice Status: offline
|
Obviously (from the shots below) we favor green here at Juice. The TV stations & studio I've worked for/with have all used green too. I've never used blue personally... or even seen it (in person) used by anyone else producing television. The only blue I've seen has been for film use. I'll have to research that a little bit. -- I have worked with Play's Haloset. It uses a reflective background that appears gray to the eye and a ring of blue lights that attaches to the camera like this. We reviewed it when I was at Videomaker way back in Dec of 2000. You can read the review here: http://www.videomaker.com/scripts/article.cfm?id=7936  Halo Set lens ring We have 2 greenscreens that we work with here at Juice. The little one was home-built... designed by Billy Allan, our resident genius. Billy can build just about anything you can describe. This wall is approx 9' tall and 9' wide... the floor sticks out 7 or 8 feet. The trick to building a slick wall like this is the rounded edges. There are no hard corners anywhere. There is no way I could have built anything like this myself! Billy designed a whole rib system like he was crafting the hull of a yacht or something. It's impressive engineering for sure. -- This wall works great for waist-up shots, but it was a little too small for doing any full-body (head-to-toe) shots or for extending your arms out to the sides. We recently dismantled this wall and stored it for future use because we now have a BIGGER GREEEEENER MEAAAAAAANER green cyc.  DJ's small home-built wall. Our big wall is a pre-fab kit from Pro Cyc (http://istudiostv.com/Chromakey-ProCyc.aspx) . It requires a really large studio space. This picture shows a behind the scenes shot while we were shooting footage for our Christmas Toolkit (ETK9). It's actually a lot larger in person than it looks in this picture. It extends several feet outside the frame to the right of this shot. We have it in our warehouse studio. The big wall is 12" tall and really wide. We painted the floor to match the color of the wall. This wall is large enough for a group of people to be in the shot all at once in a wideshot. We have used this wall extensively for our promo shoots (see the STX "Band" promo as an example) and for shooting the Santa series on the Christmas Toolkit.  DJ's BIG Pro Cyc greenscreen. Hope this helps at least a little, Fred. ~cp < Message edited by Chuck Peters -- 3/24/2006 11:30:06 PM > (in reply to MikeM) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Kindredmachine Posts: 98 Joined: 1/26/2006 From: California Status: offline
|
Awsome, thank you for all of the info :-) Especially the kits. That will make it a lot easier. :-)
_____________________________ Brent Ingenuity Films www.TheFinalProphecies.com (in reply to Chuck Peters) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
whatexit Posts: 54 Joined: 7/28/2006 From: http://brentdolanmedia.com Status: offline
|
Very cool Green Screen. What Kind of lights are they mounted on the sides and top of the screen. That is a great Idea. They look like factory type floresenct lights. But i am guessing i am wrong. I am not talking about the soft box lights on the tripods incase i am not making any sence. I usually don't on friday  Oh yeah I just order 10 stack tracks and 10 more juice drops. You guys are giving them away Crazy Eddie style. < Message edited by whatexit -- 8/11/2006 3:42:36 PM > _____________________________ Stay Stoked Brent brentdolanmedia.com eastcoastsurfer.com Digital Juice Products I own: ETK #1 ETK #10 Sound FX library kit 20 volumes of Juice Drops 12 volumes of Stack Tracks. (in reply to Kindredmachine) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
David Slater Posts: 999 Joined: 5/27/2004 From: Toronto area Status: offline
|
I would say it is either Kino Flo or Lowel Fluorescent systems _____________________________ DAVE (in reply to whatexit) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Matt Posts: 5743 Joined: 5/15/2003 From: Oak Ridge, NC Status: offline
|
here's an article about lighting juices green screen, it talks about the lights your asking about down at the bottom http://www.digitaljuice.com/magazine/articles/2005_11_green.asp < Message edited by Matt -- 8/11/2006 4:20:34 PM > _____________________________ mattjanowsky.com (in reply to David Slater) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
D. Eric Franks Posts: 2544 Joined: 11/10/2004 From: Florida Status: offline
|
Perry Jenkins wrote a short piece on that wall and how it was lit back in November of last year (that's Perry working with Santa in the picture there - no, not the one on Santa's lap): http://www.digitaljuice.com/magazine/articles/2005_11_green.asp Summary: While florescents have been a bad choice for video in the past, Perry found that the 3000K fluorescents from the Mega Hardware Store/Lumber Yard place worked fine wih his 3200K tungsten soft boxes. (in reply to whatexit) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
Shannon Berry Posts: 534 Joined: 8/31/2003 Status: offline
|
Wow, great thread! In PP try setting the threshold to 76. I've gotten good results this way but I guess it can vary. I've used a blue screen before with good results but green probably is the best choice.
_____________________________ DJ Products: ETK's: ALL JB's: ALL HD JB's: ALL JD's: ALL ST's: ALL VT's: ALL MDE's: ALL SFX PTK BT 1 BT 2 Motion Backs #2 Yes... I own it all! (in reply to D. Eric Franks) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
John Carothers Posts: 806 Joined: 1/9/2004 From: Mesa, Arizona Status: offline
|
Green should be best for DV due to its color space. john _____________________________ J2D:184 JB 1-38 JBHD 1-20 ETK 1-10 MDE 1-20 SW 1-10 VT 1-3 SFX 1-2 ST 1-21 BT 1-2 JD 1-52 DJTV S1 PTK 1 DJ 2.0 Swigglez (in reply to Shannon Berry) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
David Slater Posts: 999 Joined: 5/27/2004 From: Toronto area Status: offline
|
The choice of colour depends on the subject and specific technique used. Blue is normally used for people because human skin has very little blue colour to it. Green is used because digital cameras retain more detail in the green color channel and it requires less light. Magenta/Red screens are often used with model photography where the model contains both blue and green components. In the end, with a good keying program like Motion, Shake, After effects, you can key DV with any color screen. Isolation from the foreground and color purity of the background as well as lighting are the more important. _____________________________ DAVE (in reply to John Carothers) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
wizard Posts: 6029 Joined: 2/15/2006 From: New Hampshire, USA Status: offline
|
With all this interest on green/blue/whatever screening, is there a possibility of DJ Virtual Sets? A new tool kit of Virtual Reality? Could this be?
_____________________________ Pops (in reply to Kindredmachine) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Pom16/10e Posts: 23 Joined: 6/7/2006 Status: offline
|
Perry in the latest DJTV prodution notes, gave some great starting points, but unfortunately for Mini-DV, these are not enough to be sure pulling a nice key. Here are the DV-specifics (although somewhat valuable for other formats also...) : -Use a 3ccd cam. (obvious) -Your eyes don't tell the truth (but cam does) : use your ZEBRA feature, here's how : Turn on the zebras at 100% then tweak your screen lights so that in a single step of the exposure knob, the screen goes from no zebra at all to full zebra. Then back-off exposure a full 2 F-stops (yes, from full zebra. Then light your talent without touching exposure (move lights instead). -Use two backlights for your talent, one on each side. -Gel the backlights with purple gels. Purple will feed the Blue and Red chips plenty. Not only will it help to visually separate your talent from the background, but it'll also help your software key it out nicely. Of course, if you plan to use the keyed footage with a jumpback, using a purple one or colorising to purple will look better since your talent has a purple rim that now needs motivation. Other colors can work nicely, but purple (not quite sure purple in english means the same : i mean "violet" as in pure blue+pure red) is just the best. Of course never use anything with green in it. Enjoy ! PS : If you plan to buy a backdrop style screen, Eefx's just can't be beat (patented fabric, used in ALL major blockbusters) and are surprisingly affordable in the small dimensions range. I got mine (10' X 9') for 115bucks. Lighting the green's since been a breeze. Plus zero wrinckles, stretches as needed and comes back in position. A+ (in reply to wizard) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
lefty Posts: 441 Joined: 6/2/2006 From: PA Status: offline
|
quote: When I was in High School many moons ago, we toured the local ABC affiliate in Scranton - WNEP. The chroma they used for Wx was blue at the time, but it's since gone green. I always thought that green was used more than blue because of the popularity of blue clothing vs green clothing. Excellent info from Mr. Slater on that though. I learned something new today! outstanding green screen also. (in reply to Chuck Peters) |
|||
|
||||
|
||||
|
Matt Posts: 5743 Joined: 5/15/2003 From: Oak Ridge, NC Status: offline
|
Hey Lefty I remeber watching WNEP, I'm from State College, are you still in Scranton. Just currious.
_____________________________ mattjanowsky.com (in reply to lefty) |
|||
|
||||
| Page: [1] |
|---|
| All Forums >> [Tips, Tricks, & Tutorials] >> General Tips, Tricks, and Techniques >> DV Green Screens | Page: [1] |
|
|
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread