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David Hebel Posts: 3992 Joined: 4/24/2003 From: Currently in Bangalore, India Status: offline
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I've personally locked two of the threads on packaging. People are welcome to start new threads but those old threads were getting tired and too long. I've spoken to the issues several times and perhaps I'll speak to them again but I don't have anything new to say right now. I feel sustainable lower prices on high quality content is where we are going. The issue is deeper and broader than spending $1 or $2 more. I value and obviously see all the opinions and feedback, but ultimately I have to make the big, hard, sometimes extremely difficult decisions about what we put our energy and focus on. |
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mptribe Posts: 4460 Joined: 7/10/2007 From: Sanford, FL Status: offline
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Thank you DH. Hope you can join us for the chat tonight!
_____________________________ Marc (in reply to David Hebel) |
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flascrnwrtr Posts: 2128 Joined: 10/25/2006 From: Humidland, USA (FL) Status: offline
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Well-played, Dave. Ch-ch-ch-changes!! A year from now it will be a dead issue. 
_____________________________ ********** Juice-2-date: 354 "My worst day on set is still better than my best day doing anything else." ADOBE CS3 MASTER COLLECTION FINAL CUT STUDIO 2 (in reply to David Hebel) |
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SeektheBurd Posts: 390 Joined: 9/15/2006 Status: offline
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Bring on the changes Mr Hebel! I think you are on the right track. It is exciting times watching your company expand its already top-notch product lines. Thanks for all you do!
(in reply to flascrnwrtr) |
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sliefox Posts: 214 Joined: 11/3/2006 From: Lone Star State Status: offline
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Thanks for the great content at great prices Dave. Welcome home.
_____________________________ Too much juice to list... (in reply to SeektheBurd) |
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dajuiceguy Posts: 222 Joined: 3/6/2007 Status: offline
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Dave you mentioned once before that you wanted to slim down the packaging for some special purpose which you did not name at the time? Have you been giving consideration to selling themed binders for those who want to save space and still have the feel of Digital Juice graphically in front of them when using the products? The VideoTraxx binders are each big enough already to hold the entire StackTraxx library for now. And paired volumes for the SD Jumpbacks and JuiceDrops would be complete in two for now. Adding binders would be easy and the entire product line would be compact and matched up on the shelf. You would sure have my vote for a line of product supplements like that, since they would not be a significant departure from what you are already doing. That you have given that some thought is beyond question, I think, since it is so obvious. Care to share any thoughts with us on that subject? I hope that's okay for my 100th post. _____________________________ - Stephen System specs- Dual Quad Xeon 2.33 GHz; 16 Gb RAM, 500 Gb system drive, 650 Gb edit drive, 3 Tb RAID 3 video source files drive, nVidia Quadro FX4500; Win 7 64-bit; Adobe CS5 Production premium; Avid Media Composer 5; Cineform Neo 4K (in reply to David Hebel) |
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MattinSTL Posts: 131 Joined: 7/8/2007 Status: offline
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I just got an order yesterday that had 5 products in it. When I saw the box I figured something must have been missing, but all 5 volumes were in there. Just to put my opinions in context... obviously I don't have anything AGAINST nice packaging, but I think the people who are upset about the new packaging are not seeing the bigger picture. YES, you need to do something about the tears in the new packaging... and be sure that they won't tear shortly after the package arrives, even if they look nice on day one. To be constructive about it, I think you should extend the protective "pad" so that it completely covers the back of the DVD when it sits in the case... rather then just the lip of the paper. Next... the "slot" in that part of the case should also be made of this same material (for economic's sake) or else something that won't tear out at the corners. From an engineering standpoint, if you can't replace that material... then perhaps a 1/4" circle cut-out at each end of the slot will be enough to keep the slot ends from tearing out... and if nothing else, the inner sleave paper needs to be laminated or coated in such a way that it has plasticity, to prevent the slot ends from tearing out. So to summarize; A) consider using the same protective soft material all the way behind the DVD and in the slot opening, the best way to do this would be to have an envelope of the soft material which would require no new materials, just a larger cut of the soft material. B) While I still think you need more of the soft material behind the disk... even a laminated paper or somehow plasticized paper would keep the slot ends from tearing out. C) A hole at the end of each slot will keep it from tearing even if you don't change anything else... but I think a little strengthening is reasonable... you don't really want to know that every volume that ships from now on will have those ends torn. D) In light of the recent low prices... just forget about all the complaints and eventually everybody will accept it. That's my .02 about the choices you have. The bigger picture that I think many people are missing is the materials and production cost of the case initially... the shipping from India... the personal handling of a larger vs. smaller volume of product... the storage of said product... the extra box size that must be stored to accompany product vs. smaller packaging boxes being stored for a given volume of sales... and the shipping and packaging costs from the Juice warehouse to our front door. The thinner packaging isn't just about saving some $ on that one element... it's about streamlining the whole chain... as a business person I understand that. The fact is that let's say people were willing to pay $4-5 for the last gen of cases... with the current specials that would mean they were paying 33% more for the old style boxes... while there are people who would gladly pay that... I think the majority of your customers would find themselves filling up a cart, and watching the total $ climb... and lets say they hit a total of $100 (perhaps in the range of your average sale)... then with the new packaging they have 7 products in that cart @ $105... or they could have those same 7 in the more expensive packaging @ $140... NOW how many people do you think would do it? I'll bet less then 2 out of 10. (in reply to dajuiceguy) |
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mptribe Posts: 4460 Joined: 7/10/2007 From: Sanford, FL Status: offline
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Well said Matt. I like that you offered positive solutions and didn't fly off the handle.
_____________________________ Marc (in reply to MattinSTL) |
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deano2222 Posts: 1667 Joined: 1/11/2007 From: Cincinnati OH Status: offline
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I feel the new packaging is the way to go. And am glad that D/J puts the focus on what's on the DVDs. It matters very little what they are in, so long as I can get to them easily and keep them straight. Like the old saying goes, it's not the package, but how you use it that matters. LOL. I like the idea of a D/J binder product, but am content with a generic binder for the time being. And I am glad to have found this thread to see the other related threads were locked. I wanted to respond to a post and was going crazy over why I couldn't get a place to post my reply... I thought something was wrong with my machine. Now I can relax.
_____________________________ dean (in reply to mptribe) |
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wizard Posts: 6029 Joined: 2/15/2006 From: New Hampshire, USA Status: offline
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I found it amusing that the majority of posts (in the closed threads) were people saying "stop posting here, dead horse, etc". Seems to me, if all THOSE posts weren't made (especially since they didn't add anything to the topic) that the threads would have been half as long, had some differing opinions, and been interesting, and then faded away. Why is everyone so intolerant today. If someone doesn't have your opinion, it doesn't really make them wrong, they just differ in their opinion. Appears we have a lot of graduates from the political school of logic. "Why can't we all just get along?"
< Message edited by wizard -- 10/27/2007 1:23:01 AM > _____________________________ Pops (in reply to deano2222) |
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flascrnwrtr Posts: 2128 Joined: 10/25/2006 From: Humidland, USA (FL) Status: offline
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Trying to get it allllll started again, eh Bill?? 
_____________________________ ********** Juice-2-date: 354 "My worst day on set is still better than my best day doing anything else." ADOBE CS3 MASTER COLLECTION FINAL CUT STUDIO 2 (in reply to wizard) |
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Nomos Posts: 781 Joined: 12/28/2006 From: STL Status: offline
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I think each disc should be sent in a fireproof safe . . .. just my thought for protection. . . .
_____________________________ Juice: too much to list. . . (in reply to flascrnwrtr) |
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MattinSTL Posts: 131 Joined: 7/8/2007 Status: offline
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I think that if you can post something positive or negative about either the new or old packaging, and back that analysis up with some logical points... that your feelings on the issue will be understood and you may possibly affect DH's view on things. I can respect you for not agreeing with me about my take on the issue... and as long as everybody keeps emotional arguments out of it I don't think any threads will be closed. If you look at the closed threads you can see that they tend to get a little personal. Since there are enough people around the forums that want to keep this issue going, I'd say that's your best bet. Make a logical argument in favor of your viewpoint. The crux of my acceptance about the new cases is (admittedly) that the cases don't really mean much to me as any connection with the product (so yes, I'm biased there)... but also accepting that all businesses look for ways to streamline costs and the supply chain... and the smaller packages do something for both of those issues... plus, in a tight economy (which I think we are in, but I suppose some may call that an opinion)... "cheaper" sells. If an accountant shows a business owner how to save 1% on something... most business owners listen... now imagine if it's 10% or more? What if it were effectively 30%? If we were all privy to a financial chart that looks like the ETK content chart (from the ETK 10 promo) I'll bet that DJ does best when prices are low and volume is high... which then begs the question, "how can we keep prices lower and increase volume?" The answer to that is NOT to try and save money on promos or DJTV... the answer is to promote your product as much as you can (to keep volume high and increasing)... and to cut costs that inhibit offering lower prices without hurting the core content quality. (in reply to flascrnwrtr) |
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Nomos Posts: 781 Joined: 12/28/2006 From: STL Status: offline
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quote: oh. . and shipping should be free with this even though the safes each weigh like 50 pounds a piece. . . .but you can make the foreigners pay shipping since we have to think about how much 50 pounds is in kgs . . .. . _____________________________ Juice: too much to list. . . (in reply to Nomos) |
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sliefox Posts: 214 Joined: 11/3/2006 From: Lone Star State Status: offline
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Here's what I do:  I have my entire Juice collection (minus VTX and BackTraxx) in this box (although when SFX3 gets here Monday, it will be full). I can easily take it back and forth from work to home. I have been using it for about a year and have not scratched a single disc in transport or in use. My Backtraxx are all ripped into MP3's onto my hardrive (about 4 GB's for both volumes) and my VTX are in a nice binder so why mess up a good thing (plus there's so many discs). So for everyone concerned about packaging I say spend $24.95 at Wal Mart for every 200 Discs you have and viola... problem solved. Just my $.02 It's not fireproof though Nomos.  _____________________________ Too much juice to list... (in reply to Nomos) |
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MattinSTL Posts: 131 Joined: 7/8/2007 Status: offline
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This is why (at my other forum) we have a STRICT policy of NO sex, NO religion, and NO politics... Moderators will delete or edit posts and threads as needed to maintain this policy... and everybody is a lot happier for it. If I were modding these forums I'd delete the offending sentence (even though it may not offend ME). This thread too will be closed before long if you guys don't follow the method of 1) state your argument and then 2) back it up with logical reasoning. |
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Nomos Posts: 781 Joined: 12/28/2006 From: STL Status: offline
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quote: NOT FIREPROOF!?!?!?!? WHAT THE CR@P!!! Although i think i like this more than my Case-Logic case . . .but my cases hold like 300 something but they are like $50 a piece . . . . .. hmm. . I do like that they are hard cases on the outside though and the flexibility to add new sleeves in where ever you want it you pick up a new product that falling in the middle order of your previously owned products (for those anal ones out there) _____________________________ Juice: too much to list. . . (in reply to sliefox) |
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Eric Hartmann Posts: 2971 Joined: 4/18/2006 From: Springfield, NJ Status: offline
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quote: Pretty sweet box...can you lock it?? If so then I'm VERY interested!! _____________________________ Film Editor, Videographer, Motion Graphics Designer, and Producer JUST UPDATED!! http://www.SeaLightEntertainment.com http://www.JimBreuer.com Juice: 300+ (in reply to sliefox) |
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dajuiceguy Posts: 222 Joined: 3/6/2007 Status: offline
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Your ideas are well laid out Matt, and if you stay focused on improving the packaging to please the masses, it all makes good sense. But if we look again at what Dave said in his post above, there's a bigger picture to consider. Every structural change you make in the package design is going to impact the way it is produced. If DJ outsources all that, which I believe they do, then they are limited to some unknown extent by their ability to determine just what their suppliers can or will (or will not) do. The new form of package is the result of consultations between Dave and the supplier to head things in this direction. How does it look if he goes back and says, "Let's start over with another design?" Even if he has the clout to pull it off, the quality of his decision making takes a hit. I don't think Dave is presently inclined to rethink that. The reason I pointed to the idea of selling the larger size empty binders is because it does not require the supplier to make any production change except in the printing of covers. I would bet they are already set up to make rapid changes in that department. From the standpoint of production workflow, the supplier simply runs certain batches that ship without going through the process of adding discks. The nature of that change is an omission of steps, not the addition or revision of other steps. At the consumer end of the deal, juicers still have the same quality Digital Juice packaging housing their collections in more compact space if they are so inclined. Instead of 37 StackTraxx volumes taking up two feet of shelf space, they have them in a distinctive Digital Juice Slipcase and binder matching the tall MegaLibraries and taking up 2 inches (I actually did the measurements). The thickness ratio on the new packages appears to be about 2.5 to 1, so the next 37 StackTraxx take up just under 10 inches instead of 2 feet. That's still five times as much space as a DJ binder would require, for those who want the space and the look. And with a StackTraxx Megabinder (keying off the term being used at present for some of the libraries) the user is free to fill each slot with a disc, or put discs on one page and contents detail in matching slots on the facing page, or to group discs according to whatever. The point is that you maximize product flexibility at the consumer end and minimize the impact at the production end. And on top of those advantages you now have an addition to the product line that is logical for the handling of massive libraries, and is therefore desirable for market. Which means you would not have to sell them at cost. That is one of those rare win, win, win situations for buyer and seller. Yeah, but how long before you hit saturation? I don't know. Maybe you test the market with a poll or two. I like the information accessability advantages that come with individual packages, and I like the space advantages that come with binders. While I have the space I am okay with individual packages. But as my holding of the product line grows, I will have to do something. What I will do is very much impacted by how it looks on the shelf. DJ can help me keep flexibility by selling me tools to take care of the tools I bought from them. To me, that's what makes sense. _____________________________ - Stephen System specs- Dual Quad Xeon 2.33 GHz; 16 Gb RAM, 500 Gb system drive, 650 Gb edit drive, 3 Tb RAID 3 video source files drive, nVidia Quadro FX4500; Win 7 64-bit; Adobe CS5 Production premium; Avid Media Composer 5; Cineform Neo 4K (in reply to MattinSTL) |
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dajuiceguy Posts: 222 Joined: 3/6/2007 Status: offline
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Something I negledted to point out about my approach, or any of the others. All of this interest in packaging is largely moot if DJ makes strides to having their products easily managed when installed on a large hard drive. That effort kind of conflicts with the problem of having boxes of discs readily available for use. Once it's all on a drive, and backed up on another drive, I would guess most of us will archive the originals in some kind of container out of the way. Nobody will care about packaging then. So where do we want DJ to put its main muscle, pretty packages or advances in electronic storage and retrieval? _____________________________ - Stephen System specs- Dual Quad Xeon 2.33 GHz; 16 Gb RAM, 500 Gb system drive, 650 Gb edit drive, 3 Tb RAID 3 video source files drive, nVidia Quadro FX4500; Win 7 64-bit; Adobe CS5 Production premium; Avid Media Composer 5; Cineform Neo 4K (in reply to dajuiceguy) |
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mptribe Posts: 4460 Joined: 7/10/2007 From: Sanford, FL Status: offline
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Stephen, DJ uses their subsiderairy MixedMediaDirect for their packaging, so they in turn are their own suppliers. Dave brought it in house because he didn't like anything else that was out there. I like the mega library binder idea, with the possibile exception of making them a little shorter, because they are too tall to fit on most shelves that you can't adjust. _____________________________ Marc (in reply to dajuiceguy) |
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XanderIV Posts: 45 Joined: 6/12/2007 Status: offline
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(in reply to mptribe) |
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dajuiceguy Posts: 222 Joined: 3/6/2007 Status: offline
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Hahahaha. Maybe so. But it's how we come to terms with it and get it out of our system.
_____________________________ - Stephen System specs- Dual Quad Xeon 2.33 GHz; 16 Gb RAM, 500 Gb system drive, 650 Gb edit drive, 3 Tb RAID 3 video source files drive, nVidia Quadro FX4500; Win 7 64-bit; Adobe CS5 Production premium; Avid Media Composer 5; Cineform Neo 4K (in reply to XanderIV) |
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ken Posts: 677 Joined: 1/28/2005 Status: offline
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That's a good point re binders; since I have so much DJ content I'm considering taking everything except the VTX/SFX and putting it into caselogic brand 280-dvd cases (just $30 each on amazon.com) - anyone else have tips on using binders and cases for all the content? Or maybe one binder for each type, eg JBX in one binder, STX in another, MDEs in another? Then the packaging issue would in fact disappear. That would be a good idea, if DJ wanted to also sell binders that are sturdy that hold entire collections, for each product lineup. Also a great point re keeping content on other drives - with seagate 720 gig drives just $300 or less nowadays at newegg, it makes sense to just load everything onto big drives, to help maintain our immense collections of content.... (only issue is for old Jump Backs many of the DVDs/cDs just had a lot of jpgs? we have to render into avis/movs).. -k _____________________________ Ken JB/STX/ETKs/SFX/JBHD/BTX/MDEs: most (in reply to dajuiceguy) |
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MattinSTL Posts: 131 Joined: 7/8/2007 Status: offline
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Xander, you deserve a point for that gif :-) Stephen... I guess what it comes down to is how many people will buy an empty package... or pay for a packaging upgrade. While some people really like the idea, a business has to go with the numbers. I'm sure there are 10% of customers that would willingly pay more for better packaging but I'd be surprised if that works out for the overall bottom line. I have a 340 disk Targus binder that I got from Walmart for $28... it's nearly full. For me it's much more convenient to flip through the disks in the same order as they appear in the Juicer... and I can have ALL my Juice ready to go on the desk. Actually I agree that I can't wait until I can have all my juice on a separate hard drive... that will be about a million times more convenient. (in reply to ken) |
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wizard Posts: 6029 Joined: 2/15/2006 From: New Hampshire, USA Status: offline
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quote: Glad it works for you, but if I had to work that way, I'd probably never use my Juice. 
_____________________________ Pops (in reply to sliefox) |
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wizard Posts: 6029 Joined: 2/15/2006 From: New Hampshire, USA Status: offline
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quote: Nope, I wasn't slamming Republicans at all. Nor was I complaining about people who disagree with me. What I was complaining about was "Faulty Logic" that seems to be used so much lately. It's what leads so many discussions away from legitimate, logical points of view, down the path to personal attacks or illogical conclusions. The term Republican did not refer to the people who are Republican, but the style of logic that has been used by some Republicans over the last couple of decades to sidestep a complaint or criticism by comparing something worse. Yes, I know others do it also, but the Republican spin doctors (and I know every party has spin doctors - this is not a political slam) have refined it to such an art that the term was attributed to them. I did not make that term up. So, to reiterate, I was slamming the logic, not the people. But, if anyone still doesn't understand, I'll be glad to answer any pm's. I won't bother to reply again to this, in order to let this topic die in peace.
_____________________________ Pops |
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sliefox Posts: 214 Joined: 11/3/2006 From: Lone Star State Status: offline
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quote: Yes Eric, it does lock. I've never locked mine but it came with a key. Also they sell one that is 4 compartments wide that holds 400 discs for around $40 I think. Just go to Wal Mart in the Electronics section. I used to have to carry a big cardboard box full of my Juice back and forth to work and It was rediculous. Now I just close the box and there's a handle on each side so it's easy to carry. And it sits nicely in the passenger floorboard of the car. I can set a tv tray next to my desk and have all my juice at my fingertips. I have Juice Drops in the front left, SFX and STX in the back left, Jump Backs in the Front right and ETK's and MDE's in the back right. It may not be for everyone, but it sure has made my life easier. _____________________________ Too much juice to list... (in reply to wizard) |
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Eric Hartmann Posts: 2971 Joined: 4/18/2006 From: Springfield, NJ Status: offline
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quote: Well...it looks like I'm gonna be going to Walmart after picking up my MBP tonight (YEEAAAAAAAH POPS!!!!) That box sounds great...I'm gonna have to lug my Juice to and from work all the time (once the studio opens up) so not having to wait until I have a "batch list" to export and then bringing in specific volumes would be GREAT. Thanks for sharing!!
_____________________________ Film Editor, Videographer, Motion Graphics Designer, and Producer JUST UPDATED!! http://www.SeaLightEntertainment.com http://www.JimBreuer.com Juice: 300+ (in reply to sliefox) |
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Eric Hartmann Posts: 2971 Joined: 4/18/2006 From: Springfield, NJ Status: offline
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btw - whats the brand of the box? i'm trying to locate it online and can't find it...
_____________________________ Film Editor, Videographer, Motion Graphics Designer, and Producer JUST UPDATED!! http://www.SeaLightEntertainment.com http://www.JimBreuer.com Juice: 300+ (in reply to Eric Hartmann) |
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MattinSTL Posts: 131 Joined: 7/8/2007 Status: offline
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quote: While I don't agree with the current system, I accept that we're part of a community here... with a thorough mix of juice fans. If you can put forth a good argument for DJ spending more on the cases, or bailing on the lower prices, then make that argument. The only one I can think of is that yes, we all like nice things and we want our product to be as nice as possible over all... but economics is what it is, if Juice has higher profit from month to month from lower prices... but the individual markup is less... and they find a way to have both lower prices and still make a reasonable profit (through saving a buck or so on the cases)... then I understant that it's just what they have to do. The argument is quality versus cost... and I'm sure that you won't find another forum where people are debating the packaging that holds their software. Yes, all my thin cases so far have come with the corners torn out... yeah, that's kind of cheesy... I think they should address this issue. Yes, the paper sleeve inside is also cheesy and doesn't inspire confidence in the protection of the disc... they should fix that issue also... but they're gonna' do what they gotta' do as a business first... and considering all the love everyone POURS on Dave most of the time... I think he's getting ripped pretty hard on this as he's just trying to find a way to keep prices down and sell more units... which is great for all of us. < Message edited by MattinSTL -- 10/26/2007 7:06:34 PM > (in reply to wizard) |
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mptribe Posts: 4460 Joined: 7/10/2007 From: Sanford, FL Status: offline
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And DH did say he is working on the issues. So far I think I have only seen one picture posted of the issues people are having. DH requested that they are posted so he could see what is happening and can make adjustments.
_____________________________ Marc (in reply to MattinSTL) |
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MattinSTL Posts: 131 Joined: 7/8/2007 Status: offline
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If you open any recent purchase with the thin packaging... look at the top of the 45 degree angled "slot" that the DVD slips into... I got Fire HD, Fire JD, and the 3 newest Stacks... all of them are torn out at the end of the slot... all to varying degrees... one of the tears is nearly an inch long. I've already said that I don't care if they ever fix this issue, but I'm sure that's what is pissing people off... that and the fact that each case used to protect the entire back surface of the disc... and now 1/4 of the disc is over the slick paper inner surface rather then resting against something soft. Only the inner back side of the pocket has the soft material on it now... and if you look closely you can see that the soft material is stuck on there with adhesive... there is a cut out on the shiny paper where the shape of soft material meets it... so if that cut-out was rounded off at the top then the disc would be fully resting against the soft fabric... and then if they round out the ends of the slot, instead of just the tiny lilttle relief cut... then I think the issues would be solved. EDIT: I was about to set this up and take a picture, but if 5 out of 5 of these came this way for me, then most people have to see it also... just grab any recent purchase... it's pretty self-explanatory. But again... for the record, I don't actually care either way... I'm just playing devil's advocate since I don't think the complaints are being voiced very well. If it were up to me I probably wouldn't put too much time into the issue... now if discs are getting roughed up... or the playing surfaces are wearing out due to the packaging from those who won't buy binders... well I'd say DJ should be willing to replace any discs that may become unplayable due to the undo wear and tear that the package may cause. ;-) since nobody on the other side of this issue wants to make a logic based argument I figured I'd just give you that one.   A more streamlined approach to the padded sleeve is to just make the circle a little bigger and round off the two "corners" of the slot so that it curves right into the shaped pad there... it's just like with knots... the whole point of knots like a figure 8 is that they distribute the forces of the knot into the curve, so that the tensile strength of the rope is utilized rather then suffering the leverage of a normal knot... that relief cut is never going to prevent the package from tearing out... it will only guarantee the tear is in the same spot every time. A curve will stop it. That's why we drill holes at the end of a tear in any metal structure. < Message edited by MattinSTL -- 10/26/2007 9:29:54 PM > (in reply to mptribe) |
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wizard Posts: 6029 Joined: 2/15/2006 From: New Hampshire, USA Status: offline
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I would assume they use auto loaders, and those tears are probably from them? It would appear so to me. And actually, that never bothered me. One of my earlier posts, I explained how I fixed it for me. Only complaint I had, was that with the thin case, I have a hard time reading the spine. - LOL and btw - just got my SFX3 today - LOVE the case! (apologies to MikeM)
_____________________________ Pops (in reply to MattinSTL) |
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Exodous Posts: 93 Joined: 7/24/2007 Status: offline
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quote: Nice try Wiz, but I don't buy the argument...it was a political statement clear and simple. I've never heard "Republican" used in that way, and know of no objective source that uses that term as you claim. No party has a monopoly on politicians who sidestep issues. If you actually want to be more accurate, the democratic candidates for President have demonstrated this trate to an artful extreme by not coming out and condeming the "General Betray Us" ad that MoveOn.org published in the NY Times. Clinton, Obama, Edwards each were asked directly if they would condemn the add...each of them wormed their way out of it and would not do so. Anyway, this isn't applicable to the purpose of the thread...I just wanted to point out that your term is a "political" jab, just as if I came on here and said that people who hate America and love socialism graduated from the democrat school of logic. But if I were to be fair, I would just call socialists "socialists" instead of trying to jab at democrats :) BTW...I think Bush is a GREAT President...but something tells me you would disagree :) (in reply to wizard) |
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wizard Posts: 6029 Joined: 2/15/2006 From: New Hampshire, USA Status: offline
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I'm not Pro-Democrat, or Pro-Republican here, just using a term that is very common around here. Sorry if it offended you. I went back and deleted the word for you. I also agree with you on your last sentence - at least the last half - - but that has nothing to do with the logic statement. But I said I wouldn't continue this here, so if you'd like to continue a friendly discussion, drop me a pm. 
< Message edited by wizard -- 10/27/2007 1:33:12 AM > _____________________________ Pops (in reply to Exodous) |
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David M. Brewer Posts: 1659 Joined: 11/11/2006 From: Denver, CO Status: offline
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How about those Red Socks!!!
(in reply to wizard) |
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Eric Hartmann Posts: 2971 Joined: 4/18/2006 From: Springfield, NJ Status: offline
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quote: Oh pops...while I can't do anything about the case's spine, I CAN however help you if you're having a hard time reading the letters/numbers on you keyboard..... 
_____________________________ Film Editor, Videographer, Motion Graphics Designer, and Producer JUST UPDATED!! http://www.SeaLightEntertainment.com http://www.JimBreuer.com Juice: 300+ (in reply to wizard) |
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David M. Brewer Posts: 1659 Joined: 11/11/2006 From: Denver, CO Status: offline
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Eric...do the letters glow in the dark?...I'm a buyer then...
(in reply to Eric Hartmann) |
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Eric Hartmann Posts: 2971 Joined: 4/18/2006 From: Springfield, NJ Status: offline
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it doesn't say that........
_____________________________ Film Editor, Videographer, Motion Graphics Designer, and Producer JUST UPDATED!! http://www.SeaLightEntertainment.com http://www.JimBreuer.com Juice: 300+ (in reply to David M. Brewer) |
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